By Euro Weekly News Media • Published: 07 Jul 2016 • 9:30
STURGEON: I always thought she was dangerous, but never realised she was actually unhinged.
OMG, you Scots really do have to keep an eye on Nicola Sturgeon.
I always thought she was dangerous, but never realised she was actually unhinged. Her reaction to the Brexit result contained so much overkill, I’m surprised she didn’t arrive in Brussels riding a chariot and swinging a claymore. And what a fool she made of herself.
Talking for all the world as though Scotland had already voted for independence, she swore undying allegiance to the EU, and with an almost unbelievable arrogance, this self-important, English-hating SNP fanatic, with absolutely no mandate from the Scottish people whatsoever, told EU leaders that all immigrants were welcome in Scotland!
I wonder what the good people of Scotland made of that little gem?
This sentiment was then echoed by another anti-British caber tosser, Alyn Smith, who embarrassingly begged and pleaded with Brussels to please ‘not let Scotland down,’ rounding off his speech with such guttural ferocity, I half expected Mel Gibson to pop up behind him roaring ‘FREEDOM!’
Give us a break. If ever anyone needed curbing it’s Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP. In my opinion, this hate-fueled, blindly ambitious party is more interested in ‘revenge’ on the English than the well-being of their constituents.
Anyone with half a brain knows that an independent Scotland would never be accepted into the EU. With public sector debts of anywhere between £40 (€47) and £60 (€70.7) billion, rampant borrowing, oil revenues tumbling catastrophically, and an annual deficit of £15 (€17.7) billion, it is painfully clear that the policies of this disastrous party, who are so eaten by hatred and out of touch with reality they can’t see the kilts for the claymores, and already snubbed by the majority of EU leaders, can only bring embarrassment and humiliation to this wonderful nation.
I sincerely hope that all my Scottish friends and associates will see through this lot before they make the damage so permanent they will need to rebuild Hadrian’s Wall to keep everyone in (including all those ‘lovely’ immigrants!).
Sturgeon, Salmond…. It’s all getting a bit fishy up there!
Keep the faith.Love Leapy, leapylee2002@gmail.com
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Thi was nothing more than blatant attempt to have another referendum on Scottisn independence and to get a greater share of the vote.She knew exactly what the outcome would be as did millions of others in the UK. Nothing more than a publicity stunt.Personally I don,t care if the Scots have independence. It is they who will be most inconvenienced by the UKs stringent new border controls
Dear Leapy.Your piece above must rank as one of the most ill informed and poorly researched efforts ever to make print. Where is your evidence of “English hating”? As for having no mandate, the SNP won 56 from 59 of Scotland’s Westminster seats last year. In this May’s Holyrood elections, the party narrowly failed to retain an overall majority despite more people voting SNP than ever before, and the house still has a majority in favour of independence when Greens are included. Furthermore the SNP has a greater share of the popular vote than ANY EU ruling party. In the EU referendum, all 32 of Scotland’s local authorities returned a Remain vote. Edinburgh voted 74% Remain, with the overall total being 62%.I won’t even begin to attempt to educate you regarding your nonsensical economic points. Suffice to say that, with a little less rubbish, you might even be in line for a job with the Daily Mail. You know, the paper which, if it prints the truth, it’s accidental.If you must write tripe, please make your anti Scottishness less obvious. How ironic your whole effort is. I wonder if it’s dawned yet.
Please let me endorse everything you have written George. Well done! I was planning to inform Leapy of much the same points but you beat me to it.
I just ignore your column nowadays Leapy, but I spotted George’s comment on the website and it prompted me to take you on again.
Take it from me Leapy, Nicola Sturgeon is one extremely smart cookie. You are the one who is “unhinged” – not her. She is much smarter than you ever were or ever will be. At the age of 45 going on 46 (although she doesn’t look it) she’s a little bit older than you were when you were “only” in your thirties and assaulted that barman in your stupid flick-knife slashing incident that sent you to prison.
She’s too intelligent to make any of the idiotic mistakes you have made and continue to make, and she is way more grown-up than you are to this very day or could ever hope to be in future.
How on earth you are still allowed to publish such utter tripe in a respected national newspaper is beyond comprehension unless it’s just to give us all a good laugh at your sheer ignorance and stupidity.
She isn’t,t thick.She knows the conditions required to join the EU. She also knows that Spain will object strongly. She wants independence from the UK but from tha aspect there will be no independence in the EU. Scottish democracy will be replaced with EU beaurocracy.
Correction for the sake of clarity: I meant to say it was spotting Yanto’s first comment that prompted me to look at Leapy’s article – not George’s. Senior moment 😉
Brian, thank you. None of us mind informed comment and debate, but the bitter, vitriolic, uninformed innuendo and downright lies employed by Mr Lee went way beyond the acceptable, and when attacking Alyn Smith, he forgot to mention the standing ovation Alyn’s speech received in th European Parliament. It amazes me how many constitutional and economic experts have recently surfaced (such as Leapy and Yanto) who are so sure of a dismal future for Scotland. There is, contrarily, a respectable body of opinion which asserts that should Scotland become independent before official Brexit, then she would be able to assume the UK’s place in the EU. Time will tell, but nothing Leapy, Yanto or indeed Sr Rajoy has said so far will influence matters. Incidentally Yanto, there was nothing “blatant” about any of Ms Sturgeon’s statements. She made plain the morning after the Brexit vote that a second independence referendum was on the table, and had in fact clearly opined on the possibility BEFORE the EU referendum, should the result turn out the way it did.
Absolutely right George.
Some comments fromÃÂ Sir Nicholas Macpherson reported today. You’ll probably recall that in 2014 he was the top Treasury civil servant who published his advice to ministers about the risk of the UK breaking up. Well he’s with King’s College, London now and in today’s FT he’s saying Independence supporters could draw up plans for a separate Scottish currency.
He’s pointing out that Brexit has shifted the goal posts compared with 2 years ago so an Independent Scotland now would almost certainly not want to tie its currency to that of a country that is leaving the EU whereas the SNP plan back then as you know was to retain the Pound. He thinks it’s likely the treasury would still oppose Scotland keeping the Pound anyway like it did then.
He doesn’t seem to think adopting the Euro would be inevitable and he says the Scottish currency could either track the Euro to some extent or even diverge from it like Sweden’s Krona if required.
Interesting thought, eh? I wonder what we might call it? The Irish had the Punt for a long time. Maybe we could have the Poond?😉Or if Murray wins Wimbledon again on Sunday we could call it the Andy!
Dear Barry, your selective treatment of statistics delivers a false picture. The whole of the UK (it goes without saying) has a vastly bigger electorate than Scotland on its own so your imbalanced comparison does not stand up. The Scottish Tories got only one Westminster MP while the SNP got all the others except for Labour and the LibDems who also got only 1 each. No Westminster party could ever dream of such a landslide vote as the SNP. In addition the SNP has been elected to govern in the Scottish parliament for three straight terms in office since Labour’s collapse.
Therein lies the crux of the pressure for Scottish Independence. The English electorate outnumbers the Scots by 6 to 1. As such England always gets the government it votes for (eg Tory) but Scotland doesn’t because it never votes Tory – ever. This results in Tory policies that the Scottish people actively voted against being forced on them against their will. This is disenfranchisement. The Scottish Parliament does not have the power to overturn any of these Westminster policies so the only option left to free Scotland from them is Independence. QED.
2 years ago Gordon Brown’s Project Fear intervention succeeded in converting an Independence majority in the polls into a very slim minority only in the final week. Now in the wake of the Westminster omnishambles post-Brexit the Scots have no fear. That’s what’s changed. Where did you ever see Nicola Sturgeon display any sign of petulance by the way? The answer is – you didn’t.
Brian I did catch up with McPherson’s new stance, though it still wrankles that he overstepped the mark in Sept 2014 and interfered in a political process, quite illegally imo. Barry, I’m afraid you’ve provided no argument at all. You’re using scraps of innuendo and empty assertions no doubt gleaned from the usual suspects in the mainstream media. “Little madam” “above her station” – should we all just doff our caps to our Bullingdon club Tory “superiors”? Why does the prospect of an independent Scotland trouble you so? One thing in your favour though – it’s normal for an argument like yours to use the Catalunya question, instead you’ve introduced the Basque angle. Now I’m sure that you’re no constitutional expert and neither am I. However it is very important to note substantial differences between the UK situation and the Spanish one. Scotland is a constituent nation of the U.K, and it’s people are sovereign. They can choose to leave the union. On the other hand, Catalunya, El Pais Vasco etc are PARTS of Spain. Scotland has never been a part of England. One last thing: do you really imagine that oil is all we have, and do you understand that the price of the stuff will rise again? There is no more of it being made you know. At least nowhere near quickly enough!
PS “Leapy right again” I’d be amazed if he’s ever been right. I happened on his comments and replied, but to be honest he’s more than likely leg pulling. That possibility apart, I really should have resisted, on the grounds that it’s impossible to argue with an idiot.
So you’re a graduate psychologist Barry. So what? As it happens my daughter has an honours degree and also a masters in psychology but that’s of no importance whatsoever in this discussion and neither is your self important boast. I always look at the “broader picture” too. I have actually invited others on this website to do the same in the past, so you are not alone in that respect. Welcome to the club.
Your figures are still utterly biased because they do not compare like with like. Your graduate background should have made you well aware of the need for that basic starting point in order to reach any kind of reliable conclusion. Go back to your studies Barry and learn from them this time bearing in mind that Scotland is not England.
What really matters is the future of the United Kingdom.
Dare I add that your smarmy innuendo regarding the Krankies is a tad petulant and also completely irrelevant? Maybe you should take over Leapy’s column when he finally retires. You couldn’t be any worse.
Ms Sturgeon has at no time suggested she has a mandate to negotiate a deal with the EU. That would come after independence. You Barry, insinuate no “indication” that Scotland would now vote for independence, yet EVERY poll held since the EU vote has shown a majority in favour, with the highest being 59%. NS has always made clear that the constitutional situation we now find ourselves in would represent a material change, in other words, a game changer. Barry, shining through your posts so brightly is a deep rooted fear of Scottish independence, demonstrated by your continual disparaging remarks towards personalities. As for facts and figures, it’s obvious that your “knowledge” is gleaned from the Daily Mail, Express, Sun etc. My advice is to switch to the Beano, you’re more likely to find the accurate information you need in that publication. One last thing. You’re fond of quoting numbers and percentages, though it’s clear you are no psephologist. The 10% differential in the Scottish independence vote means that only a 5.1% swing is required to provide the opposite result. You are fixated on Scottish politics without any real grasp on the subject whatsoever. Mandates? What mandate do the Tories have to govern in Scotland with only 1 MP from 59? In fact, what mandate to govern UK with only 34% of the popular vote?
Do you know Barry that you are siding with a convicted violent offender? One of a pair who beat up and slashed an innocent man who was just doing his job trying to obtain payment from them for a purchase that was consumed but not paid for. Yes, that’s the real unreformed Leapy Lee. No apologies. As long as he continues to publish his vicious drivel I will continue to repeat this until the message finally gets through.
I am not some Scot Nat btw. I am just a man who believes in saying what he really believes with honesty and integrity. Underpinning that is my passion for truth and my equally passionate dislike of the lies and half-truths like Leapy’s that pervade our society these days.
Also Barry, your aggressive and insulting stance in your posts does not sit well with your profession. Psychology is supposed to be all about compassion and counselling. God knows, Leapy could do with some of that. Maybe you should offer your services?
George has brilliantly countered your technical arguments already but I’m happy to discuss them in further detail Barry, if you wish.
The UK voted by 52% to 48% to end its membership of the EU.Scotland voted by 62% to 38% to stay IN the EU.Spot the difference.
Despite this enormous gulf between the two nations Scotland’s leader Nicola Sturgeon has congratulated Theresa May on her success and has wished her well in “what will be a difficult and demanding job.”
Then she added, “I am determined to work with her constructively wherever possible on issues of common interest and concern.”
Ok so far, but now the coup de grâce.
“Top of those is the issue of our continued place in the European Union, and I expect early engagement with the incoming prime minister on that subject as we look to maintain Scotland’s EU status, in line with the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland.”
Quite.
You’ll know all about “Cognitive Dissonance” then Barry.
In essence, it’s the name given to the way most humans ignore or twist facts to suit their own views rather than change their views to fit the facts. Some might just call it stubbornness 😉
One would think rational people examine evidence fully and then usually draw an accurate conclusion. But then if new CONTRADICTORY evidence becomes available OVERTURNINGÃÂ their original conclusion, rational people would examine it in the same open minded way and change their minds.
Not so. Dozens of studies have shown most people get even more stubborn!
One such study recruited 2 groups, one adamantly in favour of capital punishment, the other adamantly against. Both groups were shown 2 dossiers containing impressive well-researched evidence. But here’s the clincher. The first dossier collated only the evidence in favour of capital punishment. The second only against. Sound familiar? Brexit v Remain anyone?
Faced with such contradictory evidence one would think they would conclude the situation is complex with valid arguments on both sides and move closer. No. The exact opposite happened. Both groups actually became even more polarised than before.
This is exactly what has happened to the British people Barry. A massive experiment in Cognitive Dissonance. Clearly you and I are both affected. I admit it. Do you?
Just a couple of points people may like to consider.
First those billions and billions of deficit – is that Scotland’s share (8 point something %) of the humongous deficit black hole built up by George Osborne at Westminster? It can’t have been the fault of the Scottish Government, because it cannot run a deficit: under the current arrangements it is not allowed to borrow.
Assuming that Scotland does run such a deficit inb some other way – which I don’t believe, incidentally – how is it that the government in Westminster is so willing to “subsidise” us? What on earth could they possibly be getting in return?
If you tell me that the Scottish economy is in such a terrible state that we can’t afford to be independent, I will reply that as Westminster has been in charge of our economy for the last 300 years, it’s obviously made a piss-poor job of it even by your own reckoning, and it’s obviously high time we cleared out all the incompetents who gave us the current Brexit ominshambles at Westminster, just for dessert.
My last word: it is a sign of a real lack of understanding to say that we Scots who want our country to be independent “hate” the English. Why on earth should we? There are many English people whom I know and love, and am proud to call my friends, and there are many wonderful, remarkable people in England – we all know that – but the UK’s system of government stinks, and the biggest stinkers of the lot are the ones who actually run the place.
Spot on. We should get rid of them Scots. They should of never got into Britain and now they see they want out? Are they for real? They get to go when we say so and we say NO. Ungrateful s******s
Cognitive Dissonance is a much wider and more complex subject of course than my previous brief and relatively narrow definition indicates. The comment box on the EWN website restricts considerably the amount anyone can write in a single comment, so I did what I could in the space available.ÃÂ It’s a fascinating subject though and well worth exploring further if anyone is interested enough.
I believe that, not only are the British people the subjects of a massive, uncontrolled, Cognitive Dissonance experiment pre-Brexit. I believe the entire human race is being subjected to the same thing.
When I was young, I could pick and choose the newspaper items I wished to read in peace and quiet without any stress. Nowadays, we are bombarded by 24 hour information on tv and social media – much of it shocking and even untrue, particularly on Facebook.
Our society is polarising and becoming more violent. Whites v Muslims, blacks v whites, Russia v NATO, North Korea v everybody else. The list goes on. Much of this is down to the effects of Cognitive Dissonance on human attitudes. It bodes ill for the future of humanity.
We must all try as much as we can to counter this if we stand any chance at all of making the world a better place. Are you listening, Leapy?
Such intelligence. Such insight. Such a wonderful way with words. Step aside Leapy. Greg Clifton’s the man to take over from you!
Heheh.
He even manages to contradict himself within one comment just like you do from one week to the next Leapy.
First of all he says, “We should get rid of them Scots.” Then he says, “They get to go when we say so and we say NO.”
Erm, which is to be Greg?
Obviously another client for Barry’s unique psychology.😉
Who said anything about cognitive “RESONANCE” Barry? What’s that? Are you for real? Your crazy and offensive attitude is utterly unlike any psychologist I have ever known.
What type of psychologist makes their very first words on their very first post, “Nicola Sturgeon is a petulant little madam with ideas way above her station.”? God help any of your clients, if you have any, and you make opening remarks like that.
What’s eating you Barry? I think you need to see a psychologist. I’m serious.
I notice that some people seem to think that oor Nicola was “snubbed” when she went to Brussels. This is understandable, given that the usual suspects among the meeja said so, all of them using pretty much the same words.
However, the reverse was true: she was rather warmly welcomed, in fact. People may also not be aware that our MEP Alyn Smith was given a standing ovation in the European Parliament when he repeated Scotland’s commitment to the EU.
Frankly, I don’t care whether people think the EU is the Evil Empire or not, and that it’s rather rich of you to say that it is if you’re living in Spain with no chance of being refused a residence permit thanks to the EU’s freedom of movement. As I said, I don’t care what you think about that because 62% of those who voted in the Brexit referendum in Scotland voted to Remain, and we are damn well going to.
It’s called democracy.
Just to explain to anyone who is puzzled by all this. “Cognitive Dissonance” is a recognised psychological term. The “Cognitive Resonance” term that Barry has responded with is something utterly different as anyone would normally realise at a glance. For a graduate psychologist to make such a fundamental mistake in a public forum is rather worrying.
His very first, completely unsolicited, comment was extremely insulting towards the First Minister of Scotland as obviously was Leapy’s original article. All that I and others have been doing is responding with similarly robust methods. I have always said I “give as good as I get” and if this bothers Barry or indeed Leapy then they shouldn’t be so insulting in the first place! People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones and clearly Leapy and Barry are very good at throwing them but not at dealing with them being thrown back at them!
The most worrying aspect of their deeply insulting behaviour is that both men have never met NicolaÃÂ Sturgeon. They know nothing about her beyond a few heavily edited sound-bites in the media and their own pre-conceived notions. Yet from the very outset they have chosen to attack her and others from behind their screens and keyboards in an utterly disgraceful and even cowardly manner. This says more about the true nature of Leapy and Barry than it does about Ms Sturgeon who in direct contrast always conducts herself with good grace.
Re, “Are you worried about your own previous misdemeanours being discovered maybe? Perhaps a little less sangria…” etc., you’ve been Googling a different Brian Eagleson Barry. Yet another fundamental mistake. I have committed no misdemeanours at all – ever. Not even so much as a parking fine! And I certainly wouldn’t let Sangria anywhere near me. I believe in truth and honesty (both endangered species these days it would seem) and I despise lies and dishonesty Barry. As for the “you really shouldn’t continue to handle yourself so frequently xx”, that is simply bizarre. Frankly Barry, you’re weird.
You know nothing at all about me. Yet you are content to air false accusations and absolutely appalling insults at me on a public forum from behind the relative safety of your keyboard and screen.ÃÂ Your insolent and frankly ignorant behaviour is utterly offensive and unforgivable. It is online abuse. You need to stop it – right now.
Not only are you risking your career writing appalling stuff like this in public, people have been handed criminal records for such online abuse. Furthermore, false accusations of misdemeanours against someone can be prosecuted as libel. If you continue in this vein you are the one who will be breaking the law.
One important point:
Leapy said;“With public sector debts of anywhere between ã40 (â¬47) and ã60 (â¬70.7) billion, rampant borrowing”
I’ve no idea where he gets his figures from, but his whole argument is ripped apart by his own words “rampant borrowing”. The devolved Scottish Government has NO power or remit to borrow. If you can’t borrow, you can’t owe. THERE IS NO BORROWING, Leapy!
The problem most people seem to have is they do not seem to understand that Scotland is not the member state of the EU that was voting on leaving or remaining in the EU referendum, the vote was for the member state of the UK to leave or remain, the UK voted to leave and that is what is going to happen, that is what is called democracy Edward!
People really need to stop grabbing at straws, look at what the issue is about and take it from there, not some point that is a mile off the issue in point. If Scotland wants to be a member of the EU then fine, they can apply for membership when the UK have left but a member state called the UK has to leave before a small part of that member state can apply to become a member state in itself. The UK was allowed to be come a member because it fitted the requisite for being a member so a little bit of it cannot remain while the majority of it leaves!
BTW, anyone who stands up and speaks about how great they feel about the EU in the Brussels parliament gets a standing ovation or at worst a large clapping so don’t let that give you false hope! 🙂
On the contrary, most people understand that perfectly well, but can you imagine the furore that would have arisen had Scottish votes managed to tip the balance and keep England in the EU? Would you still be taking the same stance?
Nobody is grabbing at straws. I doubt if you are an expert in constitutional law, and I know I am not. It’s wait and see time. Lots of things may be possible.
What you say would be true if the UK were a unitary State, Mike, but it is not. In other words, Scotland is a country, not a county, and it is a part of the United Kingdom, not a part of England. For that reason, the concept of national self-determination comes into play.
Let’s put the boot on the other foot for a moment.
I suspect that the people of England wouldn’t be best pleased to find that they were going to be doing the exact opposite of what they voted for, whether they like it or not, that their government henceforward would be based on an SNP majority at Westminster… I suspect they would not greet their new and unelected Prime Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, with spontaneous outpourings of civic joy, or be willing to stay in or leave the EU depending on whether the people of Scotland decided Aye or No.
Meantime, do come and visit Scotland if you fancy a change from all that awful sunshine in Spain, we like having visitors, and will not lob undercooked haggis at you. This is a promise!
It doesn’t matter that Scotland is another country and a part of the UK, also has nothing to do with England being a country within that member state and having the majority of leave voters! The member state was the UK… one state, one member and not 4 member states, 4 members! National self determination doesn’t come into play on anything, as I have said, 1 state, 1 member, the vote was for that member state to leave… don’t let the foolish self interested NS try to hypnotise you into the same misguided hope she got when she seen some light between the bricks on the UK voting to leave the EU 🙂
I have to admit, one of the reasons I came to Spain many years ago was because of the sunshine and the heat and to get away from a wetter climate. I have to apologise when I say I have tried haggis 2 times and have to confess I miss it like I would miss a hole in the head… although I might take the offer of the visit up one day to remind me of the UK weather I was escaping from 🙂
Sorry what I should have said was “most remain voters do not understand what the referendum was about” George, if they had then we wouldn’t have to listen to a lot of this Scotland voted to remain stuff we are subjected to. I would agree with you if the UK where a single 4 member state of the EU as such, then Scotland could do as it wishes as its constitutional rights would probably permit it to do… but as I have said: The UK is a “One member state” and the vote was for that member state to leave or remain, as we all know, the member state voted to leave.
Now the thing I find so puzzling and I have to admit even laughable at times is: The referendum vote as being the question of: “Should the UK leave or remain in the European Union” was know for several months before the actual vote, it was known when everyone voted and then the UK population voted… and now the Scot remainers call foul because the majority of people that voted in Scotland voted to remain… what was it you where voting on? Oh no one in Scotland or Scottish politician thought, what if Scotland votes to remain and actually tried to get that side clarified before the referendum happened! Do me a favour! 🙂
Mike: “Oh no one in Scotland or Scottish politician thought, what if Scotland votes to remain and actually tried to get that side clarified before the referendum happened! Do me a favour! :-)”
Well Mike you’re obviously not as well informed as you’d like to think. Soon after the EU vote was announced, the date etc, the SNP – and others in Scotland – complained immediately because the vote was to take place just 6 weeks after the Holyrood elections, but more than that, Nicola Sturgeon put the point that regarding the vote, it should not be determined by a simple majority but would also have to have agreement one way or another from the 4 constituent countries, i.e., you should need a majority of 3/1 to Remain or Leave. As Scotland and NI voted to Remain, then that would have been the decision. Predictably of course, Westmister dismissed the idea, conveniently forgetting all the promises made in the runup to the Scottish independence referendum that Scotland was an “equal partner” etc and other nonsense. All lies and deceit of course, anything to keep Scotland in the union at any cost.There you go then Mike. Not laughable at all, and I have done you a favour.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-exit-only-possible-if-all-four-nations-of-uk-agree-to-it-nicola-sturgeon-says-10277359.html
I’m afraid you are wrong about you staying within the EU. You took part in a vote which was as a whole of the UK, and that was 52% to 48%, so from democracy you will be leaving with the rest of us!
The reason Scotland and NI objected was because it was too close to other elections they where having, not the fact what the referendum was about, if it was such a big deal for some politicians and people then they obviously didn’t do enough or where not that worried enough before the vote, the referendum has been run and voted on weeks ago and yet we still get nationalists like you and Sturgeon ranting on, all people like you and her will do is cause problems in Scotland.
You just don’t understand what the referendum was George, you keep going on about Scotland and now NI, it is nothing to do with Scotland, NI, England or Wales separately, it is to do with them all together as one entity called the UK, you just don’t seem to be able to understand it was the UK that was the member state!
Thank you George! Winding back a little, today there are people claiming – Tory politicians, David Dimbleby, for example – that we Scots new all along that there was going to be a referendum on Europe before we went to the polls on 18 September 2014 to decide on independence or not. I have since learned that there was a mention of such a referendum in the then current Tory manifesto – page 74, I was told – but I was certainly not aware of that at the time, and did not think to check. Silly of me, I know, to have thought the repeated statements by Ruth Davison (leader of the Scottish Tories) and others in the Better Together campaign that the only way for Scotland to remain a member of the EU was by voting No. I did not believe that then and I don’t believe it now, but it did not occur to me – or, I suspect, to anyone else – that a referendum on the subject was in the offing.
So, Mike, no, in Scotland I don’t think we will be leaving the EU, I think we’ll be independent first. We’ve been slapped in the face too many times by Westminster, we gave the Union one last chance in September 2014, and Westminster blew it.
Good luck with your wishful thinking Edward, I feel you are going to need it and an awful lot of it at that 🙂
Mike, you obviously missed my earlier post:
“On the contrary, most people understand that perfectly well, but can you imagine the furore that would have arisen had Scottish votes managed to tip the balance and keep England in the EU? Would you still be taking the same stance?
Nobody is grabbing at straws. I doubt if you are an expert in constitutional law, and I know I am not. It’s wait and see time. Lots of things may be possible.”
See also:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-exit-only-possible-if-all-four-nations-of-uk-agree-to-it-nicola-sturgeon-says-10277359.html
And what would you be saying if Scottish votes had managed to keep England in? I have a feeling that your democracy would be seen in a different light.Anyway, we shall see, but what you don’t get and likely never will, is that the UK can never be an equal union. How can it be when England’s population is around 5x the other three added together?
I would be saying exactly the same, it is not England that is the member state of the EU it is the UK, I really don’t see why so many people appear incapable in being able to understand or grasp that it is the UK that is the member state!
You say “What I don’t get”, what does that mean? I never said it was an equal union, the UK is a union and that union voted on a referendum, there was a result… end of story! It is you and many others that don’t get the fact it was the UK that was the member state of the EU, not Scotland, Wales, NI and England etc. that where separate member states wrapped into one that where voted on as one, one state, one member… it is called the UK!
Sorry I replied to this and now see your reply wasn’t directed at my comment but the content in the reply would still stand 🙂
“I would be saying exactly the same” – so easy to say now, but if I believe you, it wouldn’t necessarily make it true of every Leave voter, would it? You just have to read the anti Scottish vitriol on D Mail etc forums to know that there would have been ructions had Scottish and/or NI votes kept England in the EU.We KNOW that the member state is the UK and I’ve already indicated that. We also know that there is such a huge democratic deficit here, plus the fact we have a Tory govt with only ONE MP in Scotland. That’s why, if Scots have any sense, we’ll be out of the UK at the next indy ref.Finally, I hate to be pedantic but you write reasonably well, so please learn the difference between “where” and “were”.
Barry, I won’t even begin to address your arithmetic failings. Suffice to say Ms Sturgeon is, by popuar rating, by far the most popular politician in the UK, and the SNP is by popular vote last May, the most popular party in any country of the EU.As for “special treatment”, this lie has been shown to be just that, over and over. The unionist parties were desperate to keep Scotland in the UK. Why? Because we cost so much? Don’t be daft, Westminster makes money out of Scotland, that’s why.As for “little country”, well there are quite a few little countries doing well in the EU, like Denmark, Belgium, and former Yugoslav and Baltic states.“Pues no”….please read the following by Paul Kavanagh, who lived in Spain for 18 years and is a fluent Spanish speaker and who can also speak “passable Catalan” (his words).
http://www.thenational.scot/comment/wee-ginger-dug-spanish-veto-of-scotlands-place-in-eu-is-a-unionist-fantasy.20433
I am not speaking for every leave voter, I never suggested I was! You really need to keep away from discussions or foro unless used for an informative or support means as what you generally see or read are several or even a few hundred disgruntled people spurting off because they can’t get others to listen, a minority of people.
You say you KNOW that the member state was the UK but then go on to state there is a huge democratic deficit and that the Tories have one MP in Scotland… but there wasn’t any huge democratic deficit, it was a majority vote from the UK to leave!
“If the Scots have any sense” what sort of a statement was that? The Scots have already voted on leaving the UK and they said no, you just don’t accept anything others do that you don’t agree with! “you remind me of another Scot on this list”.
Learning the difference between not accepting a situation and getting on with that situation in a positive and structured manner will do you a lot more good and give you much better quality of life.
I can’t understand where some people “including politicians” build up this apparent anger that makes them appear to express disgust in their fellow British, at the end of the day life is too short for wasting it in such a worthless way, what’s wrong with accepting Scots, English, N.I. and Welsh etc. as fellow British and get on with it 🙂
Mike, you’re a world class point misser. In the Indyref of 2014, the unionists pulled out all the stops, including downright lies. I know, I witnessed it. However, the result was 55/45 for no, but the game has changed. One of the Better Together war cries, used over and over, was “only a NO vote can ensure Scotland’s place in the EU”. How idiotic and mendacious does that look now? Since the EU vote,the UK is now a completely different place from September 2014 – surely you realise that.NO ONE is expressing disgust at “fellow British”. Where do you get those ideas? It is as clear as day that there is a great political divide between Scotland and England in particular. England is moving further to the right, and Scotland has a strong centre left party in the SNP. That’s where the sense comes in.
“you just don’t accept anything others do that you don’t agree with!” Really ironic! Why can’t you accept that Scotland doesn’t agree with leaving the EU?
People of both sides tell lies or rather generally “twist things some”, thats nothing new in politics and it works both ways.
Unfortunately referendums and elections don’t really work as you would like them to, Scotland has a referendum on leaving UK and voting NO, then UK has a referendum on EU and votes NO… so lets have another vote on Scotland leaving UK becasue they don’t want to leave EU… it’s not how it works! If your such brilliant Scottish politicians knowing that an EU referendum was on the cards had half a clue many other Scots give them credit for then they would have not been so desperate and accept the “Scots stay or leave UK” vote until after the EU referendum… but guess what, SNP as desperate as they are just decided to run with the flow, if your looking for someone to blame them blame your own politicians!
I accept that just over half of Scotland doesn’t want to leave the EU “the stats tell us that” but as stated before, it was not what the referendum was about! If Scotland wants to be a member state of the EU then fine, they have to wait until the UK leave then they can have a referendum to decide if they want to apply to join!
I would however disagree with people who think that Scotland would sacrifice leaving the UK to be a part of the EU, I also think many Scots are up to their eye teeth with elections and referendum, I would guess they have no desire to go out on another one… at least not at the moment! But then only time will tell… on all counts 🙂
Not answering for Leapy but maybe if you Google the following there might be a base for some insight: “Scotland’s debt mountain: Holyrood’s borrowing could hit ã50bn by 2020”.
ScotlandâÂÂs 32 councils owe nearly ã15bn to banks, public debt agencies and pension funds, and are planning to spend nearly ã500m more on new capital projects, in addition to sharing billions of poundsâ worth of private financing through the SFT. Meanwhile, households and taxpayers are forecast to come under additional financial pressure with Scottish graduates and students set to owe ã6bn by the end of the next Scottish parliament in 2021, according to an analysis by the higher education funding expert Lucy Hunter Blackburn.
That debt would be three times their borrowing when the Scottish National party (SNP) first won power in 2007 on a promise to abolish student debts. The debt is funded by the Treasury in London and is not directly repaid by taxpayers.
But: There is no borrowing Leapy!
I might add I have watched a couple of hours of the Scottish parliament recently & increasingly see NS taking a lot of flack for things the SNP have promised for years and still haven’t produced… I wonder if this is a reason behind NS’s push on the EU thinking she can cling onto a Scottish vote that is possibly running out of patience! I don’t follow Scottish politics as I really can’t stand either Salmond or Sturgeon 🙂 so it would be safe to say that I am guessing on the latter, but…. 🙂
Welcome to Cognitive Dissonance Mike. It’s gotcha.
Mike, I don’t need to google, and I suggest that if you want facts, you check Smith Commission/Scotland Act etc.ALL councils borrow, but what we are discussing in HOLYROOD. Under devolution, the power to borrow is retained by Westminster, EXCEPT for capital projects. This allows for a MAXIMUM of ã250M to be borrowed in any one YEAR. (Changed this year to ã450M). As far as I am aware, this has never been used, but even if it had been to the full, then the SNP govt since 2007 would only have been able to borrow ã2.25Bn, a far cry from Leapy’s fanciful guess, and from your mythical numbers.As for watching the Scottish parliament, well maybe you have, but something tells me you’ve been fascinated by Ruth Davidson and her Tories. Let me just assure you once again: the SNP is the MOST popular political party in the EU by dint of popular vote. Go and google that. “Cling on to a Scottish vote” – ROFL!
“If your such brilliant Scottish politicians knowing that an EU referendum was on the cards had half a clue many other Scots give them credit for then they would have not been so desperate and accept the “Scots stay or leave UK” vote until after the EU referendum”
At the time of the indy ref, the EU vote was a meer glint in Nigel FALANGE’s eye. You do know when it was announced, I’m sure. You’ll have got it from the Daily Mail.
“I accept that just over half of Scotland doesn’t want to leave the EU “…”Just over half”…62% of those who voted is just over half?
What makes you think we don’t want another referendum? Oops, I forgot, the Daily Mail and the Tories at Holyrood told you! Besides, you could quite easily have another GE in UK very soon, as Reichsfuhrer May seeks to build on her majority. Clue: she’ll get very little help north of the border.
But Mike, if you’re in Spain, why does the Scottish scene bother you so?
The key word in your first paragraph is “could”. It does not mean “will”. It’s just an opinion, not a fact.
Fact: In the 3 consecutive terms in office since the SNP was voted into power in the Scottish parliament it has lived entirely within the budget allocated to it by Westminster. There is no borrowing by the SNP government.
Fact: Scots pay more in tax to the UK Westminster government than the SNP government gets back. With Independence all that money currently retained by Westminster would be available to Scotland.
The SNP would also get rid of that enormously costly nuclear weapons base on the Clyde, Scotland’s most heavily populated area btw – a prime target. How about basing those nuclear WMDs in the Thames, eh? No? I bet the Tories would prefer to put them somewhere in the North East instead. Either that or Gibraltar!😉It’s a different matter regarding councils borrowing money – they do that all over the UK – not just Scotland. Ultimately they have to pay it back. Just like we all do.
However the UK Westminster government’s debt mountain is still spiralling ever upward despite all the talk of austerity. Funny that.
“People of both sides tell lies or rather generally “twist things some”, thats nothing new in politics and it works both ways”
Here’s oe example. Better Together activists (many by the way bussed in from various parts of rUK) repeatedy told older voters that they’d lose their State Pension if a YES vote was successful. This lie was used by such as ex PM Gordon Brown, despite the DWP/Pensions Service itself assuring many individuals who bothered to write and ask, that their pensions would be paid as normal should Scotland become independent. ONE example of how blatant lies helped produce a NO vote ably promoted by such as the daily Heil, just like ” the only way to preserve Scotland’s place in the EU is by voting No”. Now, the opposite could happen. The indy ref of Sept 2014 was “won” on a parcel of lies, deceit and scaremongering, all of which are more than exposed now.
PS. If you want to discuss debt, how about the UK’s ã1.7 TRILLION? Or borrowing, where is the ã200 Bn plus for Trident coming from, do you think? Or the High Speed Rail, or the Hinckley point nuclear power station? Remember, that is ALL UK DEBT. Scotland doesn’t have the power for that!
Nicely put Brian, but I suspect Mike will come back with more obfuscating nonsense. Of course, maybe he rates Holyrood at the same level as a council, and in that he isn’t that far from the truth, given the limited powers held therein!Incidentally, did you pick up on the interview given by the Spanish Foreign minister? He’s threatening to veto the UK’s article 50 – whenever it may be enacted – if the UK govt tries to take Gibraltar out of the EU as well. Fun times ahead.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/07/22/the-real-spanish-veto-threat/
He’s Paul Kavanagh, also writes in the National and lived in Spain for 18 years.
The Scottish politics scene doesn’t bother me George, it is the constant ramblings of nationalists that I can’t get over, doesn’t matter what part of UK they are from and all we hear at the moment from people like yourself is Scotland is going to get to remain in EU and get to come out of the UK… but the voting has all been done but some just don’t seem to be able to get on with that!
Why do you and others always end up spitting out the Daily Mail when you can’t think of anything else to fire at people, what the hell has the DM got to do with it? Seems to be the ones that accuse others of being DM readers must be DM readers themselves as they, and in this case you appear to suggest you know what it contains, as in my case: I haven’t got a clue because I don’t read the English national papers lol
I live in Spain and as a British subject UK politics does interest me, I have every right to be interested in it, much more right than for someone to question a British person as to why they should be interested in it… but I would have though that was obvious!
Glad to see you actually realise how elections are run in the UK and are aware of the tactics used by most parties…. and a practice that exists in generally most of the rest of the world, whats any different this time that hasn’t always been an issue! 🙂
Thank you George. Fascinating (and very amusingly written) item on the WeeGingerDug blog. I’ll be making regular visits from now on.
3 things that interest me just now, and probably you too George, are Hinkley Point, HS2 and Trident’s “replacement” – 3 colossal UK gov projects with eye-watering price tags. With a 12% devalued pound already and more devaluation to come when interest rates are cut and then Brexit finally happens, these enormous projects are now unaffordable – assuming they ever were in the first place. Hinkley P threatens to break France’s EDF too.
And what benefit do these ridiculously expensive UK gov projects bring to Scotland? None – except perhaps the latter which would still employ a few souls on the Clyde, assuming it stays there and assuming no nuclear “accidents” blow all of Scotland to Kingdom Come.
I notice Theresa May has just put a hold on the Hinkley P deal this morning. I hope she cancels it and builds more affordable power plants. We Scots can’t contribute any more tax to these ridiculously unaffordable UK gov projects. Seriously, the UK gov is sleepwalking the UK towards break up. The UK gov’s heading into the same crazy territory as Spain these days.
“The Scottish politics scene doesn’t bother me George”
Of course it doesn’t. You’ve just now appeared on this thread, haven’t you Mike?
“I haven’t got a clue because I don’t read the English national papers lol”
Again, of course you don’t, but I’m sure you know the DM is the modern Fleet Street version of Volkischer Beobachter. I note though, that you use the term “English national papers”. Your slip is showing Mike.
“Glad to see you actually realise how elections are run in the UK and are aware of the tactics used by most parties….”
If you’d lived through the Scottish indyref as I did, you’d KNOW that it was different. A truly stinking dirty campaign by Bitter Torygether. Also, in the recent Holyrood elections in a constituency near me, I witnessed the dirtiest single campaign ever, and that was by a LibDem. Without doubt the worst I can remember in any election, and I’ve lived in this vicinity for most of my life apart from 2 years in Andalucia.
So Mike, I’ll overlook the fact that you dodged several questions, but if you have any moral fibre you will answer this one truthfully: Do you now accept that the Scottish Govt, at present the SNP, have no borrowing? This of course being due to the inarguable FACT that borrowing is NOT devolved but reserved for Westminster, and that you and Leapy Lee are totally incorrect?
Definitely a nationalist lost cause 🙂
I think your last statement says it all as it makes no sense if you actually read my reply to your post “properly” 2016-07-18 14:20
Mike, that article you referred to was the purest nonsense. It is exactly the sort of lying propaganda that was flung at us all through the independence referendum campaign. You will remember the bit about the ã350 million a week that was going to be ploughed into the NHS thanks to not being in Europe? About that level.
For example, what on earth is that stuff about graduates and students and debts and taxpayers and paying back all supposed to mean? In Scotland, unlike in England under Tony Blair, we did not impose tuition fees on students.
As for the Scottish Government’s supposed huge pile of debt – there is NO SUCH THING because the Scottish Government is NOT ALLOWED TO BORROW.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I am heartily sick of being lied to by politicians and the media. As we say in Scotland, they must think our heads zip up at the back.
Nothing worse than being unable to admit when you are proved wrong Mike, as you undoubtedly are. No Holyrood borrowing, it’s not devolved. But you go on claiming black is white and comparing apples with pears, central govt with local councils. Go check English council debts but whatever they are, they are not the same as Westminster ones. You go on spouting drivel on a subject about which you are so obviously ignorant, just like your hero Leapy. You go on ignoring points and questions put by others while making ludicrous and unsubstantiated claims of your own.
You are either a simple stirrer or just simple.
Either way, cheerio.
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